Who Is The Donk???

[skippy76]

PokerStars Game #33938857755: Tournament #203040271, $8.00+$0.80 USD Omaha Pot Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/10/12 9:33:16 ET
Table '203040271 13' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: EYECURCHIPS (2550 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: Kane2 (2155 in chips)
Seat 3: munimann (6840 in chips)
Seat 4: picotto82 (4240 in chips)
Seat 5: MattRosson (1540 in chips)
Seat 6: MrCrued (3455 in chips)
Seat 7: paans87 (3390 in chips)
Seat 8: snibsnab (2800 in chips)
Seat 9: 7-2aintbad (8750 in chips)
EYECURCHIPS: posts small blind 50
Kane2: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 7-2aintbad [5s 2s 8s 5d]
munimann: calls 100
EYECURCHIPS has returned
picotto82: calls 100
MattRosson: folds
MrCrued: folds
paans87: folds
snibsnab: folds
7-2aintbad: calls 100
EYECURCHIPS: raises 300 to 400
Kane2: calls 300
munimann: calls 300
picotto82: calls 300
7-2aintbad: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [2h 2d 6c]
EYECURCHIPS: checks
Kane2: bets 1755 and is all-in
munimann: folds
picotto82: folds
7-2aintbad: calls 1755
EYECURCHIPS: folds
*** TURN *** [2h 2d 6c] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [2h 2d 6c Kh] [Ac]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kane2: shows [4h 7c 5h 8c] (a pair of Deuces)
7-2aintbad: shows [5s 2s 8s 5d] (three of a kind, Deuces)
7-2aintbad collected 5510 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5510 | Rake 0
Board [2h 2d 6c Kh Ac]
Seat 1: EYECURCHIPS (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Kane2 (big blind) showed [4h 7c 5h 8c] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 3: munimann folded on the Flop
Seat 4: picotto82 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: MattRosson folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MrCrued folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: paans87 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: snibsnab folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: 7-2aintbad (button) showed [5s 2s 8s 5d] and won (5510) with three of a kind, Deuces

[Adaon]

i hate the hand, but the pot odds are just too good.

[kane2]

still you for even playing that hand

[Holdem Freak]

That would uhm be me sir.

[skippy76]

That would uhm be me sir.

srry, i forgot

[CaliNaughti]

I dont know if i would ave playedit any different. I normally dont play hands like that but I wasnt there at the table, watching, observing how the other players were playing. I think Skippy may have had a good read on him after watching a few hands with him. Good job Skippy!!

[kane2]

skippy had no read on me.. he had just been moved to the table

[phishfinder2]

kane, what did you go all-in with?

[kane2]

honestly i dont remember what i had.. i think i had a ton of draws straight and flush after the turn

[Melina 07]

Sorry but 2-7 aintbad is the Donk for playing such a piss poor hand to begin with and hilarious for posting it and asking that question but seriously even if that hand won in the long run playing those hands iis just gonna get ya in trouble more times then not

[Kat]

I have no views on donks, fish, or monkeys, but from a theory point of view. you call with an unplayable hand pre-flop, compound the error by calling a raise, then call AI on the flop with bottom set on a 2-lo board with no real working low draw. I guess you're locked in on the flop, but trash hands like that are gonna get you killed in plo8.

[senator xxx]

..... but from a theory point of view. you call with an unplayable hand pre-flop, compound the error by calling a raise, then call AI on the flop with bottom set on a 2-lo board with no real working low draw. I guess you're locked in on the flop, but trash hands like that are gonna get you killed in plo8.




http://www.32midnight.com/Smileys/default/yes.gif



Listen to him....he knows his stuff.

[skippy76]

this probably makes it worse, but it wasnt plo8, just plo. What is it that makes the play so horrible pre flop? Low pp with possible strait flushes plus i had chips to see the flop with. With less chips, i wouldnt play this hand, but i was running hot so i did. Granted , i got lucky, but i sure didnt deserve to be treated the way kane treated me. In my opinion it was a donk move to go all in with only draws, especially when they were all runner runner with exception of the 6 high striat.

[skippy76]

i just noticed the hh wasnt complete. its been fixed

[Kat]

this probably makes it worse, but it wasnt plo8, just plo. What is it that makes the play so horrible pre flop? Low pp with possible strait flushes plus i had chips to see the flop with. With less chips, i wouldnt play this hand, but i was running hot so i did. Granted , i got lucky, but i sure didnt deserve to be treated the way kane treated me. In my opinion it was a donk move to go all in with only draws, especially when they were all runner runner with exception of the 6 high striat.

I should have checked but when I saw the HH it never occurred to me it could be PLO. Yes it makes it much worse. I don't know what kane had so can't comment on that beyond the fact that any good draw is going to be ahead of you on that flop. But the real issue is pre-flop hand selection and there isn't a position, situation, or game texture where that hand is playable. Ask yourself this? What flop do you want to see with a hand like that? Then ask yourself how often such a flop occurs.

To answer your specific questions about the hand, it's completely uncoordinated. In a multiway pot small flushes will kill you, your 55 pair can never make top set without a straight being possible on board, and your straight possibilities are basically non-existent. you're trying to make a straight with 85 or 52 which means each is 25:1 to flop the inside cards and even then you're making non-nut hands.

[Kat]

i just noticed the hh wasnt complete. its been fixed

Pre-flop I play kane's hand the same way. On the flop I like his shove. If he was deeper stacked I'd recommend check-folding to any action because of the danger of 66, but with that much behind and with multiple backdoor draws I think shoving the flop is correct, partly because it's difficult for anyone who doesn't have exactly 66 or a 2 to call that board, and most people don't play hands that include a 2 in PLO. So the flop shove ordinarily has considerable fold equity even with the price it's offering to a caller.

Edit: actually, I can also see check-folding the flop for kane here with this effective stack-to-pot ratio. Just looked at the blinds and he can get off the hand with a decent stack behind. If I was playing it it'd be a close decision for me between shove and check-fold, with the decision being driven by how much FE i thought i had.

[skippy76]

i see what your saying kat, thanx for the input

[skippy76]

ok ill go with the concensus here, im the donk

[skippy76]

i guess i think too much from a holdem point of view about hand strength

[Kat]

i guess i think too much from a holdem point of view about hand strength

Most people do. The thing to remember with PLO is that hands with medium-small cards can have considerable value provided they are highly-coordinated AND have the kind of construction that produces top set and/or big draws (usually wraps - the much-loved open-ended straight draw of HE is a weak PLO draw). So rundown + pair hands...something like 8876 or 8875 is stronger than 8865 (I know they look almost identical but 8865 has the "hole at the top" and that makes a big difference). Similarly 8876 is much stronger than 8776 which in turn is much stronger than 8655 (which I'd never play except for stealing situations or super-short). Hands that are kind of smashed up like 8554 and 8543 (two holes at the top) are even worse and unplayable unless you're on a steal or super-short.

This is usually the point at which someone tells me that pre-flop all PLO hands run close in value. Which is true but totally irrelevant unless you get AI pre-flop.

[xxlurchxx]

Trips is an excellant hold em hand but a real dog Omaha hand. Unless you have top set it's never good to play to aggressive. your playing against 4 cards not 2 so you can have alot of possiblilities against you. You are more likely to see the nut hand in omaha than in hold em as you have more cards out.