To raise or not to raise

[Yoda]

Thought this was another interesting Hand to learn from.
I was going to post thoughtd on this, but I think Ill wait till see comments first.
What are your thoughts preflop on how it should or can be played for each player.



PokerStars Game #50767904921: Tournament #317794824, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2010/10/07 22:28:01 ET
Table '317794824 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: PARocket630 (2090 in chips)
Seat 5: Zuma 123 (4755 in chips)
Seat 7: minarod (3946 in chips)
Seat 8: doomswitch2u (2687 in chips)
Seat 9: rookiepsu (3022 in chips)
rookiepsu: posts small blind 50
PARocket630: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Zuma 123: folds
minarod: raises 300 to 400
doomswitch2u: folds
rookiepsu: raises 925 to 1325
PARocket630: folds
minarod: raises 925 to 2250
rookiepsu: raises 772 to 3022 and is all-in
minarod: calls 772
*** FLOP *** [2s 4h 9h]
*** TURN *** [2s 4h 9h] [8h]
*** RIVER *** [2s 4h 9h 8h] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rookiepsu: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
minarod: shows [Tc Th] (a pair of Tens)
rookiepsu collected 6144 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6144 | Rake 0
Board [2s 4h 9h 8h 3s]
Seat 2: PARocket630 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Zuma 123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: minarod showed [Tc Th] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 8: doomswitch2u (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: rookiepsu (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won (6144) with a pair of Kings

[rookiepsu]

Against some players I would just flat my hand there. Against others I would ship. Against mina, I felt the best way to get it all in here was to just 3bet.

[MinaR]

Good game Rookie, played that hand like a complete donkey....lol. I know better than that I could have saved myself a lot chips if I had folded there or just called the reraise to see a flop and got out of it if I didn't hit my pair. Should have know better. Lesson learned.

[PARocket630]

Lesson learned here too. I did something similar a few hands later.betting sequence was different results were the same.lol Sometimes you just run in to a buzz saw,a very sharp one at that.

[Yoda]

Some thoughts about this hand, which are all mostly preflop. I talked to Mina about this hand afterward and thank here for letting me post this.

1. Mina's 400 bet preflop would have told me( if I was rookie) that she had a better then avg hand.

2. As Rookie posted, he really had a couple of ways to play this hand. With KK, he could reraise or flat call. It really depends on read of the person he playing. Now, Im going to assume He noticed the betting pattern that Mina, like many others, bets slightly more with better hands.

3. With a reraise, Id feel pretty confident that original raiser would call. At a min, I would bet no less then 3x the raise. Which would be something in effect of 1200. the actual bet was 1325. Digging in for a few more chips. I like.

4. This is the key moment that I really wanted to talk about here. What do you do with 1010 here and why?? A reraise infront of you and you have 1010. Push, Call, Fold?? What would you do here?

5. Mina reraised with 1010 up to 2250 and Rookie aint going nowhere here with KK. Both end up all in and KK holds up.

6. As I said in "4", whats best way to play 1010 here preflop after rookies reraise??? Now Unless were pros, I dont think many of us are folding our 1010 here preflop. The 4x bet preflop gave some information to rookie and I wonder how he would have played it if Mina would have bet 3x preflop.?

7. For me, I think I would have just flat called rooks RERAISE. LEaving her 2700 chips and getting to see a flop. It alos would force Rook to act first on flop. If rook raises preflop, maybe I can get away from this hand, but with flop of 2S 4h 9H and no overs, its going to be hard to fold here to a raise from rook, but it is a chance
Calling the reraise at least give you a chance to see flop and reevaluate the flop and see what rook does with it. If flop say A Q J, alot easier to get away from hand. LEaving me still with 2700 chips.

8 Final thoughts. I think even if played perfectly, would be hard fold for 1010. Flop coming out all under cards makes it that much harder. a Call to rookies reraise would at least give you a chance at a flop and way out of hand. This is only shot at getting away from this hand IMO. If Rook raises again big on flop, maybe I can get away, but with those under cards, it still wil be a tough fold.

Things to think about.... Raising Big with big hands all the time is a tell. Players who change up bets make it harder to read them. 1010 IS not an all in hand this point of tourney when you have chips.

sometimes a call to a reraise is a better move then a re reraise all in. Usually a reason a player reraises.





"Here is actual hand again

PokerStars Game #50767904921: Tournament #317794824, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2010/10/07 22:28:01 ET
Table '317794824 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: PARocket630 (2090 in chips)
Seat 5: Zuma 123 (4755 in chips)
Seat 7: minarod (3946 in chips)
Seat 8: doomswitch2u (2687 in chips)
Seat 9: rookiepsu (3022 in chips)
rookiepsu: posts small blind 50
PARocket630: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Zuma 123: folds
minarod: raises 300 to 400
doomswitch2u: folds
rookiepsu: raises 925 to 1325
PARocket630: folds
minarod: raises 925 to 2250
rookiepsu: raises 772 to 3022 and is all-in
minarod: calls 772
*** FLOP *** [2s 4h 9h]
*** TURN *** [2s 4h 9h] [8h]
*** RIVER *** [2s 4h 9h 8h] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rookiepsu: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
minarod: shows [Tc Th] (a pair of Tens)
rookiepsu collected 6144 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6144 | Rake 0
Board [2s 4h 9h 8h 3s]
Seat 2: PARocket630 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Zuma 123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: minarod showed [Tc Th] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 8: doomswitch2u (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: rookiepsu (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won (6144) with a pair of Kings

[rookiepsu]

Good game Rookie, played that hand like a complete donkey....lol. I know better than that I could have saved myself a lot chips if I had folded there or just called the reraise to see a flop and got out of it if I didn't hit my pair. Should have know better. Lesson learned.

Good game mina. I don't fault your play. I might have played it similarly in certain scenarios. Without giving too much away, I believe that you perceive me as a bit of a maniac and, knowing that, along with your betsizing, I felt it would be easy to get it allin preflop. Your betsizing told me you had a high pair or AK minimum....POSSIBLY AQ. So I knew you had a hand strong enough to at least call a 3bet. That said, though, bottom line is we both had big pairs and that dictated the action. It's pretty easy to play KK or AA. Nothing special there.

In regards to betsizing, that's one of the reasons why my bets are always the same size, almost without fail preflop and sized consistently postflop as well. I almost exclusively open 2.25x regardless of hand or position in these tournaments. In other structures I'll mix up my bet sizing, but I'll never coordinate my betsizing with my hand strength. Sometimes I'll size bigger based on people left to act/those in the blinds for various reasons, and sometimes because of effective stack sizes. But on the norm, all of my opens are 2.25x. I could have AA or I could have 72o. This leaves your opponents guessing. If I'm raising weak, I give myself the opportunity to get away if need be, or call a small 3bet without investing a whole lot with a decent drawing hand. If I'm raising strong, my opponent could step in it if I have a huge hand. I just won't give them the benefit of being able to tell what I have based on bet size alone. This also allows me to open a lot more hands without putting my stack in too much danger and play a lot of flops, turns and rivers, where the variance and risk to my stack is significantly lower with each street.

In your shoes, with 1010, I would have standard-raised to 225 and then the 3-bet size faced would have been significantly smaller, giving you more options. Say KK 3bet to ~700. You only have 225 invested at this point, and could play it a few different ways. If you think you're beat, you're not getting the odds or enough implied odds to try to hit a set, so you should fold, leaving yourself a healthy 3.5k+. If you think there's a chance you're racing, you could call and see a flop, leaving you 3k+ if the flop is ugly. Conversely, if you put me on a move, you could bomb preflop for another 2k+ or allin for 3k+, really putting me in a bad spot. Since your open was so big, my 3bet had to be big and I'm really priced in to any shove given stack sizes there. So even if I were on a move with A7 or something, I'm still 30% to win vs 1010 and getting a decent price when you 4bet to 2250 with over 3k in the middle, another ~900 to me when i've already invested 1325 and only 1.5k behind.

Basically, the 4x open with those stack sizes really shallows the stacks and puts you in a pretty big pickle with a hand like 1010. You're effectively playing shortstack poker when not on the a shortstack by making the stacks that shallow, which can only end bad.


I'm not saying you played it poorly or dogging you, just giving my thoughts on it fwiw. Everyone plays differently and I'm in no position to teach anyone. Sometimes, though, my perceived image is a false-front. In that specific situation, I wouldn't 3bet light all that often....because of knowing what people think I'm playing like.

[Yoda]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Not many people use the odd bets. Many will just use 3x 4x 5x. I really think that its good to change bet patterns. Not many use the odd bets as much as Rook and I. Rook probably every single hand..haha.

Lesson learned? Betting is a big part of poker and effects how others play you. A player who bets lower and higher with a wide range of hands is scarier then the one who always bets same way. thoughts?

Thanks again for your post rook. Nice insight