AK vr 77 ...Whats best play both?

[Yoda]

This was a hand between Cybella (playmoneepro) and myself. We thought it was a good hand to discuss. This hand is all about how to play AK and 77 preflop in this situation and 77. How do you feel about AK move and 77 bet and call. Ill respong after i see a few posts. No real wrong answer here either.


PokerStars Game #51678864369: Tournament #323997138, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2010/10/25 23:15:55 ET
Table '323997138 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: jaeschke (2610 in chips)

Seat 3: PlayMoneePro (5875 in chips)

Seat 4: voices_Shh (2465 in chips)

Seat 5: amadare000 (5596 in chips)
Seat 6: Raise, Ha! (5034 in chips)
Seat 7: Peteyweestro (5919 in chips)
Seat 8: Zuma 123 (3410 in chips)
Seat 9: MoReal (2091 in chips)
jaeschke: posts the ante 25
PlayMoneePro: posts the ante 25
voices_Shh: posts the ante 25
amadare000: posts the ante 25
Raise, Ha!: posts the ante 25
Peteyweestro: posts the ante 25
Zuma 123: posts the ante 25
MoReal: posts the ante 25

Zuma 123: posts small blind 100
MoReal: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to voices_Shh [Ac Kh]

PlayMoneePro: raises 323 to 523

voices_Shh: raises 1877 to 2400

amadare000: folds
Raise, Ha!: folds
Peteyweestro: folds
Zuma 123: folds
MoReal: folds

PlayMoneePro: calls 1877

*** FLOP *** [Jd 7c Jh]
PlayMoneePro: checks

voices_Shh: bets 40 and is all-in

PlayMoneePro: calls 40

*** TURN *** [Jd 7c Jh] [3h]

*** RIVER *** [Jd 7c Jh 3h] [3d]

Raise, Ha! said, "gg"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PlayMoneePro: shows [7s 7h] (a full house, Sevens full of Jacks)voices_Shh: shows [Ac Kh] (two pair, Jacks and Threes)

PlayMoneePro collected 5380 from pot

voices_Shh finished the tournament in 8th place
voices_Shh [observer] said, "gg"
Sushi Hound [observer] said, "n flop"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5380 | Rake 0
Board [Jd 7c Jh 3h 3d]
Seat 2: jaeschke folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: PlayMoneePro showed [7s 7h] and won (5380) with a full house, Sevens full of JacksSeat 4:
voices_Shh showed [Ac Kh] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Threes
Seat 5: amadare000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Raise, Ha! folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Peteyweestro (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Zuma 123 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: MoReal (big blind) folded before Flop

[rookiepsu]

The play is fine on both ends. I like the 77 open, and with ~12bb AK is an automatic shove there. 77 is also an automatic call ~12bb effective, especially vs your range there. Standard.

[playmoneepro]

I don't understand all the 'bb" talk, but here is what I was thinking during this hand. By the way, I don't care what the chip stack size are, once I decided on a read, I will go with it. Anyways, the hh doesn't show that I took most of my time bank thinking about yoda reraise and came to this conclusion:

1) he would only reraise with aa,kk,qq, or ak/aq....I am the chip leader and I can afford to call. I know he put me on mid pair because of my initial raise.

For myself,,,Im reraisin gall these suggested hands and Folding alot too like KJ KQ A10 and tougher folds like AJ 88 99 ..maybe. Raising or folding only here. I was putting on hands like AQ AJ KQ KJ 99 88 77. Since betting was a little less then 3x t preflop, im thinking im probably good and happy with blinds. If there is a Call, Its probably race and will leave with results.

2) but if he had aa/kk/qq why would he raise that much and be afraid of my mid pair or at best a/k? If aa/kk/qq is going to go all in anyways, why not just smooth call or min raise and not lose the customer, because he is pretty much last in chips? I know yoda argues that he doesn't want me to get lucky with whatever type hands I may have, but once again, if he had aa/kk/qq, he is in lead and his chips are going in no matter and not afraid of what I have or what I do, plus he would want me in the pot.

Few questions here. First off MY M is (2465/(100+200+(.25x8))=2465/500=4.93 (5) to start hand.
Im reraising the same amount with all of those hands mentioned. U have the chips to call and if you do, feel fine with thr results. I dont agree at all with just calling with AA KK QQ to see a flop. to "trap" per say" Im thinking anyone not going to like be reraised and if i get them to fold, so much the better. A hand folder preflop means i have 0% to lose. Im totally happy winnin the 533 bet and blinds and antrees of 500 for total of 1033. Increase my stack by about 30%. I kinda want the call with anything slightly weaker or equal to mine. I know im actualy a slight dog in this hand 45-55%., but hope Cybelle doesnt have enough chips to call,,or doesnt want to risk 45% of chips on race.
I talked to few people on this. I love the 77 preflop play and i got like half the people saying the fold to the reraise and the other half calling. Im ok with the move and note sure what is the CORRECT move, but for me, I think i fold, but money is real close for me to call.

I see no reason to call with this or any bigger hand.


3)so the above made me think more that he had a/k or a/q and wants me to fold my middle pair.

Absolutly correct. wasnt sure if middle pair, was counting on not wanting to gamble what i thought at time was half stack. Actually like 45%
4)so do I want to race?

5)heck yes...I like to gamble, especially if I think I'm ahead... (55 percent to 45 percent according to the calculator on this site)

Something good to learn here.It always great to be slight favoritite in a hand, I want the 77 vr AK here., but it comes down to why dont u push all in early onin a tourney with AK or small pairs? Youydont want to risk tourney life on a race. At later periods of a tourney, where I probably worked hard to get chips, Im looking for good situations to gamble them. For me,, the chips is slightly more then i want to gamble for me in same situation. Pretty close though
6) plus, I am chip leader and can afford it and if I lose, still be in middle of chips


7)once again, I put him on a/k or a/k and went with it....

8) if the flop has no a/k/q...then I would continue to put chips in pot if we were to have any more.
the rest is mute....also, this discusion came about afterwards only because yoda type in "sick" as if it was a bad beat for him or something..... but I may not know much about this game and I know I'm not a good player compare to most, but 77 is ahead of a/k/q preflop I think. And once flop comes and there is no a/k/q, then I think my percentage goes up even more.

Anyways, I can honestly say I would never fold that hand to any size raise if my read tells me that it is correct. It just happen that I was correct. Of course, if I was wrong..well, gg to me donkey Cybelle! (which by the way have been call numerous times)

I think you hit it here on here..I think it depends on the size of bet. I dont think u calling a 5k all in or 4k all in with 77 here.

[Walnut Dog]

oh **** yeah playmonee! i have been thinking about this hand, and discussed it with the green one. i will try to post my thoughts on it tomorrow.

[playmoneepro]

Lol Walnut Dog...sorry I don't know your name yet. But looking forward to your thoughts. I am trying to become a Jedi like Yoda too...... : ))

[donkylicious]

Your thought process is great and its good to see the 'best hand' pre-flop hold up sometimes! Sometimes you get punish for making the right read and play online or even live games. I'm a scary cat and probably would have folded without thinking it through like you did.

[Yoda]

In sorry,,I meant to quote Cybelles post and ended up editing it. On another note. I agree with Rookie, but im note sure at what point the 77 should (amount of reraise)fold.. if even that is correct

[donkylicious]

Lol@ Yoda and Cybelle...there are no wrong play here

[playmoneepro]

LoL Charles.....you have not play with me much so you won't understand what I'm thinking. I know I'm new to poker with only a year and half under me, and only been trying this tourney thingy for a little over a month now, so I know I don't know much yet. That's why I'm learning from you guys. Anyways, don't you remember our chat and how I learn to play this silly game....That's why I may be naive and sometime not do the 'correct play" but you can either choose to believe me or not believe me...but I assure you that I would call any amount here since if my read on you is "a/k," then why would I not call anything with 77 and let fate runs it course? If you get lucky and hit, nice hand sir and thank you for trying to give me your chips.... I mean come on, no one should be playing this game if you can't trust your own read and go with it. Yes, we all make wrong reads sometimes, but you gotta stick by them during play. Look at the Hand History: you made a big reraise and left yourself with only 22 chips left. I just called, instead of going all in. You know why? Because my "read' says you had ace high and I had the best hand! I wanted play it out pretending we had lots more chips left behind us and to see if my read was correct or not so I can use it for future play. I was emulating that we had lots more chips left behind. I wanted the flop to come out and continue on. I wish you had more chips now to see what would happen afterwards, but like I said earlier, "if no a/k/q" comes on board, I would continue to put more chips in. {Of course with you only having 22 chips left, I would have had to call now in this particular situation even with a/k/q on board now.} But lets say you and I had lots more chips, then we continue play. If now what I think you have hit, I would fold but if the hand I put you on did not hit...then lets party on and see how much heat you can take with Ace high. Its hard to explain it all here on words of what was going through my mind, but I do learn from every big situation I face. I hope everyone understand what I'm trying to say..sorry if its confusing. I'm not a scary girl that people can push around and also I am willing to gamble. I know this "cash game" mentality is not always good for tourneys, but that why I appreciate your input and all the other good players here. I am just trying to learn. I want to become a Jedi!:biggrin1: But like I've also said earlier....I've been wrong with reads before and we might have not have had this discussion and gg game to donkey Cybelle!

Last note if we did have more chips left after play:


*a or K or q hits on flop - likely scenario 1) you continuation bet, I fold. 2) you check, I check, etc.

* a or k or q does not hit - likely scenario 1) you continuation bet, I'm all in , or 2) you check, I'm all in.

[MinaR]

I have found myself in these types of hands all the time and I am either the chip leader or as my fellow freakette Chris would say "Riding Low On The Pole".....lol If I am the short stack and in fear of being blinded out then I am going to want to double up. So for me any ace or pair I am going to go all in and hope the Poker Gods answer my prayer. If I am the chip leader and have a small pair like sevens then I like my chances here and I am going to call because I have enough money to gamble with. I think in this case both plays here are correct. My fear if I were Cybelle are the two over cards which always seem to smash a small pair. In this case I think Cybelle made a good read on Yoda and called it. Thank you Charles once again for posting these hands that make you think about your game. I have come a long way and I am greatful that I have learned from you and my fellow Freaks. I love playing here and all the friends that I have made.

[PARocket630]

All good stuff. I beleive stack size was a crucial part of how this hand was played. When your tourment life is at risk we sometimes second guess our reads. Just a thought.

[Yoda]

im not sure everyone understood why i thought this was interesting. I guess ill try to say....at what point is the chip stack big enough that you dont call the reraise with 77. Im getting alot of different answers on this away from here. Some think would call any raise amount. Im thinking there has to be a point where the gamble just isnt worth it. Im still trying to get some more opinions on this area.
if the raise is 3k 3.5k 4k 4.5k 5k...what amount is it not worth the call if at all.??

rookie got some info from some site on this hand that stated she should call on 77+ a10s+ which i found very interesting. more to come

[PARocket630]

I guessing around 6k.Then again she probably figured out that you can be a thief sometimes. lol This play may have been player specific.

[Kat]

Very close.

If Yoda had about 400 fewer chips this is an instacall based on pot odds. If you fold in such a spot you shouldn't have raised w/ 77 in the first place.

If Yoda had a much bigger stack (another 1000) I would fold the 77 to a shove for multiple reasons. Calling and losing would have a functional impact on my M, calling an AI with a medium pair is unattractive because you are either flipping or an 80/20 dog, being the caller rather than the shover is bad in general...

With the actual stacks... it really is right on my personal knife-edge. I would probably shade towards calling because if I call and lose I am fairly comfortable playing short-stack poker against those opponents, whereas if I call and win I've knocked out a good player.

[playmoneepro]

All interesting points so far, but I don't think you guys seem to understand (especially since I am the one with the 77, and I am telling you my thought process) that I 99 percent PUT yoda on a/k at best and that I was willing to "race" which I am favored by the way. I don't see or understand all these comments that I should have folded. Its not like I put him on a better pair and and still went into a race as the underdog....I put him on a/k or a/q. I understand that math plays a big part, but what about your "read" and going with it? Basically in simple terms, its like saying I am ahead, but a I better fold in case the other person gets lucky with their 45 percent?

[Yoda]

All interesting points so far, but I don't think you guys seem to understand (especially since I am the one with the 77, and I am telling you my thought process) that I 99 percent PUT yoda on a/k at best and that I was willing to "race" which I am favored by the way. I don't see or understand all these comments that I should have folded. Its not like I put him on a better pair and and still went into a race as the underdog....I put him on a/k or a/q. I understand that math plays a big part, but what about your "read" and going with it? Basically in simple terms, its like saying I am ahead, but a I better fold in case the other person gets lucky with their 45 percent?

First off, Like Kat said, its really on the edge to call or not. With a chance to knock my butt out, he would probperly go for it. I think it comes down to risk reward. In a tourney, this one only had 14 players with 8 left. Only 3 cashed. Cashing is the goal in a tourney. Ive seen time and time again giant stacks lose all their chips because they were making the wrong gambles. This particualar hand I think it borderline for me. Most times probably fold but im a little conservative. the amount of chips should really matter here. Even iff 99% sure I have AK AQ, if I had say 5k chips would you still want to race?
Your still favored 55-45% , but it you lose. your left with less then 1000 chips. The amount of chips was real important here. I dont fault the call at all. This hand was interesting to me because I was trying to see at what point in chips is the call right.

Another way of looking at this is...IF you were early in tourney and raised with 77,,,and someone went all in and your sure they have AK AQ...would u still call?
would be favored 55-45. The point being you wouldnt want to race all your chips in even for a slight edge early in tourney. Now, with our situation, you need to decide what chip amount is to much to risk. Its close call IMO and ok with it.

At end of tourney.. I want to pick on short stacks and go with good gambles. What I dont want to do is risk to much of my stack gambleing. My ultimate goal is to Cash. With 8 people and big stack, I might look for better pos orsmaller stack to gamble with. I dont know,,Maybe i would call. Its so close for me.

Im probably not explaining very well here. I want to point out there is nothing wrong with your call. The study of this hand is in what amount is to much even if u know it a race.? So many things to think over.

[playmoneepro]

You are basically saying if we were to play out hands face up and you see my cards and I see your cards, I should fold 77 because I might lose to two over cards? Also, to your other question...what does it matter in the beginning of tournament? I don't even know why I bother responding anymore since once again, if I think I am ahead, the chips are going in.... so my 'read" said you had ace high and I went with it. Beginning, middle, end.....the chips are going in. I've always have the philosophy that if I put all the chips in the middle good, then I did the right thing. Finally, I do thank everyone for their opinions..I am learning. But in the end, its easy to second hand guess after hands are played out and we see the hole cards. Even if I were to lose this hand, I still would feel I did the right play.

[Kat]

All interesting points so far, but I don't think you guys seem to understand (especially since I am the one with the 77, and I am telling you my thought process) that I 99 percent PUT yoda on a/k at best and that I was willing to "race" which I am favored by the way. I don't see or understand all these comments that I should have folded. Its not like I put him on a better pair and and still went into a race as the underdog....I put him on a/k or a/q. I understand that math plays a big part, but what about your "read" and going with it? Basically in simple terms, its like saying I am ahead, but a I better fold in case the other person gets lucky with their 45 percent?

If you think you can put Yoda on overcards with 99% certainty here I'd suggest you're overestimating your ability to read him. The easy way to find out is to ask him how he plays pairs 88 and up in this spot.

However, a more important point is the one raised by Yoda in his last post. The fundamental issue that you should be considering in a spot like this is not whether you are a favorite to win the hand, it's whether calling or folding maximizes the amount of prize money you're going to win. There's another thread somewhere in which it's pointed out that folding AA on the bubble of a tournament can be correct. In a cash game if you're sitting there with 77 and Yoda has his AK face up, then obviously you instacall with 77. In a tournament, whether you call or not depends on your stack, Yoda's stack, the stacks of everyone else, the number of players left, and the pay-out structure.

Anyway, regarding your last sentence above, yes, there are many tournament situations where you can be 55% ahead but where you should fold.

[playmoneepro]

I know I ask for some help learning, but saying I should folding knowing/believing that I am ahead is silly to me. I never said I was the best "reader" in the world nor I am always correct in my read. But for this hand, my "read' or gut feeling, or woman's intuition, or voodoo, or aliens told me... I believe I was ahead and I put my chips in. And no, I'm not folding AA because the bubble is going on. By the way, I raise like this with aa/kk so lets not limit me to pocket 7's if you want to say he plays 88 same way he did. Why don't we talk about how he misread or could have misread the strength of my hand?

[Kat]

This thread is getting to be somewhat (and i don't to offend anyone) funny. I know I ask for some help learning, but saying I should folding knowing/believing that I am ahead is silly to me. I never said I was the best "reader" in the world nor I am always correct in my read. But for this hand, my "read' or gut feeling, or woman's intuition, or voodoo, or aliens told me... I believe I was ahead and I put my chips in. And no, I'm not folding AA because the bubble is going on.

Then consider this. It's a FPP satellite at Stars. One of those awful things where there are 10,000 entrants and the top 10 get an entry into the $215 Sunday million, everyone else gets nothing. Blinds are 1000/2000. There are 11 players left. You are in the big blind with a 10,000 stack. The UTG player has a 500 stack. It's folded to the button who has a 50,000 stack. The button shoves on you. You look down at AA. What do you do?

[playmoneepro]

I do a Phil Hellmuth instacall....LOL Because if you want to go into the hypothetical realm, that guy could double up and double up and I go card dead and end up getting it in and get a bad beat and lose myself...etc.etc. I rather lose with aa as the saying goes... We are all going way off track. I thought this discussion was about the ak vs 77. I simply responded by telling everyone my thought process. It turn out I was correct. Like I said earlier, I could have lost and still feel I did the right play.

[Yoda]

You are basically saying if we were to play out hands face up and you see my cards and I see your cards, I should fold 77 because I might lose to two over cards?

There are times u would fold it, even knowing it. The goal of a tourney is to cash. If you gamble every PP your stack will go up down. The stack sizes really do make a difference.
Also, to your other question...what does it matter in the beginning of tournament?

In the beginning of a tourney, your risking tourney life on a flip. If play a tounrey this way all the time you wont win every flip. Early on a flip is not worth it. Many players would fold up to JJ to an all in preflop early on. Not worth it.

Here is a real life example.
Rookiepsu had i think 44 and limped int a pot at 25-50
I was behind him and called with 88
another player made raised like 2500.
Rookie and I easily folded. The raiser showed 66. He had no idea the value of his hand and raised 50x bb. Started with 7k in chips. Noone here gonna call off about half stack here. Just not worth. I knew the player was weak, but was gonna fine a better spot to exploit it. If he has AK and i pushed. Id be risking tourney life on a coin flip. Not gonan do this early on in tourney. Later when blinds are huge, I may gamble short stacked.

I don't even know why I bother responding anymore since once again, if I think I am ahead, the chips are going in.... so my 'read" said you had ace high and I went with it. Beginning, middle, end.....the chips are going in. I've always have the philosophy that if I put all the chips in the middle good, then I did the right thing.

Cybella....feel the love.

[Kat]

I do a Phil Hellmuth instacall....LOL Because if you want to go into the hypothetical realm, that guy could double up and double up and I go card dead and end up getting it in and get a bad beat and lose myself...etc.etc.

If you instacall in that spot you're making a huge mistake.

[Yoda]

Im scared to be yelled at

[playmoneepro]

Yoda, nevermind about his hand...I'm done with it. If you two think I did a bad play, so be with it. And when Did I ever said I gamble with every pocket pair I get? I thought we are only talking about this hand? Can we stay with this hand only and not the other billions possible hand with billions different situation. I think this is why I never talk about what I think when I play a hand. This could be the last time I share my thought process on a particular hand.

[Yoda]

u ever get yahoo messenger?

[Kat]

Actually I agreed with your play, I was simply trying to extend the discussion to bring out the critical differences between cash games and tournaments.

[playmoneepro]

I see your point Kat and honestly do appreciate your opinions. Yes, I have the cash play mentality burnt into me.

[Yoda]

Kat..is who I go to for opinions.

[PARocket630]

Kat thanks for your insights, they are always appreciated.PlayMoney this is only a discussion dont take it so personal.Yoda is getting frightened,then he gets the force out and we are all in trouble

[playmoneepro]

LOL, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just saying its sure is easy to second guess something once you see the hole cards and end results. FACT: Cash or tourney, I will put my chips in with 77 vs A/K anytime, all the time. As for Yoda, apparently the "force" was not with him that particular hand. :)

[Yoda]

LOL, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just saying its sure is easy to second guess something once you see the hole cards and end results. FACT: Cash or tourney, I will put my chips in with 77 vs A/K anytime, all the time. As for Yoda, apparently the "force" was not with him that particular hand. :)

Just have an issue with this part of statement. cash/ tourney makes a diffference. when, chips stacks are all important

[playmoneepro]

LOL...Funny. I guess everything has to spelled out specifically with you. Once again, If I feel I am ahead for whatever reason, the chips are going in. I'm talking about my own philosophy and my own way of play. It seems to be doing okay. Sorry if it doesn't comply to your rules.

[Yoda]

im bald now...those last 3 hairs are pulled out

[PARocket630]

Boy u guys and gals from Texas are tough. Now i know where the saying "sticking to my guns " Comes from. Valid points on both sides. I figure by post 75 we will call it a draw.

[playmoneepro]

Only 40 more post to go with this one PARocket......:eyebrows::censored:

[PARocket630]

Lol love your conviction. I am not reraising you with anything well maybe 5 of a kind

[MinaR]

im bald now...those last 3 hairs are pulled out

Well think of all the money you will save now that you don't have go to the barber...lol :biggrin1:

[Yoda]

My name is Yoda and i am slightly stubborn

[MinaR]

Not to mention bald....lol :loco: